Episode 7 – Why we are Atheists…

Finally, we are back! Apologies for the delays, but its been crazy…

 

In this episode we have two guests, Tie and Alex, discuss with us religon, theists and shooting the bull about other things…I have to say, the conversation was a lot of fun with great points, we hope you enjoy.

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About George

George is a self-proclaimed philosopher, thinker and ex-Jehovah's Witness that has taken the opportunity to expose his views on religion, atheism, science, history and human interactions through this blog. View all posts by George

10 responses to “Episode 7 – Why we are Atheists…

  • OLDFriend

    Heard your podcast, quite interesting. I would have to agree with some of your comments on how some people try to fill some void by going back to the organization. They need to hold on to something to believe in. But what about those that didnt believe back than and left and now believe in a GOD. Are they trying to fill a void, I dont think we should generalize one does not know what they go through in life. My personal thing is not to fill a void. You guys believe in “science” and thats great, but still interesting that you guys are going out of your way to “convert” others out of the religion. You are still doing what you did in the past, you are preaching your beliefs. WHY? Why do you care because you have friends in it still? True friends will care about their friends beliefs. Even if that other friend you grew up with has these stupid restrictions. If in your mind and your science proves them wrong, let them believe what they want. Alex said it best, I respect what they believe but I wont talk or debate it with them because I believe they are wrong. We live in a world where everyone tries to one up the other. How about we just let be and be the bigger person. You find tons of holes in religion or GOD, thats your opinion. Science like the “The theroy of Evolution” like the title says “theroy” not concrete its a theroy there are holes. Can you prove without a doubt can science prove that there is no GOD, I can go to school and acquire degrees up the wazuu and write books, make up some bullshit and make you believe its scienctific. Just like you said the bible is written some bunch of people came up with some stuff to make people believe. What if science is the same way just to be acknowledge as a smart guy, to get their name out there. If this what you do is fun, be my guest I enjoy your podcasts they are funny. But the same could probably be said about you guys that the reason you are doing this and talking about JDUBS is to fill your own void. Happy trails my friends, I think you guys are awesome and hiliarious.

    • Jesse

      Oldfriend,

      Thanks for your comments and listening to our show. I was wondering if you truly are an “oldfriend” or if you just decided to use that as a screen name. While I agree with parts of what you said there were a few things we differ on.

      Heard your podcast, quite interesting. I would have to agree with some of your comments on how some people try to fill some void by going back to the organization. They need to hold on to something to believe in.

      (so here is of course where we agree)

      But what about those that didnt believe back than and left and now believe in a GOD. Are they trying to fill a void, I dont think we should generalize one does not know what they go through in life.

      (This point is similar to the one Tie made during the last show. I suppose you’re right that not everyone continues to believe because they don’t want to get everything up. I’m sure some people truly believe in their past experiences as Tie said. Although that doesn’t make their experience legitament evidence for belief. Lots of people have “seen” Elvis but I don’t need to respect their illogical belief.)

      My personal thing is not to fill a void. You guys believe in “science” and thats great,

      (You make this statement like it’s a bad thing. Saying that someone “believes” in science is kind of a red flag for me. It may just be me, but it rubs me the wrong way. Do you believe that your light will turn on when you flip a light switch? Or do you KNOW that your light will turn on. Science is not about belief it’s about proving things. It’s about turning a hypothesis into a theory after careful study and observation.)

      but still interesting that you guys are going out of your way to “convert” others out of the religion. You are still doing what you did in the past, you are preaching your beliefs.

      (Hardly……….we run a podcast and whoever downloads does it because they want to. Not because their parents make them, not because if they don’t their friends will shun them, not because we convince them that god will smite them. We don’t use fear to manipulate People, and if you like us or hate us that is your choice and I respect your right to make your own choice. Life as a witness isn’t a “choice” it’s either do as we say or lose everyone and everything that you have ever known. So, don’t you dare compare me/us to the Jehovahs witnesses.)

      WHY? Why do you care because you have friends in it still?

      (Absolutely!)

      True friends will care about their friends beliefs. Even if that other friend you grew up with has these stupid restrictions.

      (I do care about my friends beliefs because there is a chance that those beliefs could kill them someday. I may not believe in a god but I don’t care if someone decides to believe. If they tell me that homosexuality is wrong because god says so, that Is when I have a problem with their beliefs. If they martyr their children because of their beliefs then I have a big problem with their beliefs.)

      If in your mind and your science proves them wrong, let them believe what they want.

      (I have to try because if my mom turns down a potentially life saving blood transfusion and I never tried. I will feel guilty for the rest of my life. The same goes for all my old friends. I have a hypothetical situation for you OLDfriend……..

      Let’s say that knowing what you know now you have a chance to speak with members of the Jim Jones cult. This opportunity comes one week before the drinking of the poisoned kool-aid. Would you respect their beliefs? Or, would you take this chance to talk to them? Would your answer change if you had friends in the cult? If your mom was in the cult? Well everyday that my mom gets into her car she risks drinking the “poisoned kool-aid.” Anytime that she goes into the hospital her risk of death is increased because of illogical religious beliefs. I don’t respect those beliefs just like I wouldn’t have respected the beliefs of the jim jones cult members. Years ago the society said organ transplants were as bad as cannibalism. There are numerous accounts of people who turned down much needed transplants for themselve or their children to comply with these rules……..to keep god happy.
      This resulted in the pointless loss of innocent lives. Then the society changed their stand and allowed transplants. It’s actions like these that disgust me. If you believe that I’m wrong for standing against an organization that acts like that, then you my friend are delusional. If my Mocking of the JDUBs causes anyone to leave the organization then I have done my job.)

      Alex said it best, I respect what they believe but I wont talk or debate it with them because I believe they are wrong. We live in a world where everyone tries to one up the other. How about we just let be and be the bigger person.

      (There is far more to it than that.)

      You find tons of holes in religion or GOD, thats your opinion.

      (Religion…….no, most of the holes are factual. Holes in the “theory” of god, yes that is opinion based.)

      Science like the “The theroy of Evolution” like the title says “theroy” not concrete its a theroy there are holes.

      (Anytime someone brings up the definition of the word “theory” when discussing evolution shows that they know absolutely nothing about evolution. Perhaps you should read a book about the subject before you deny it’s validity based on a word. Since you brought it up though I’m going to indulge you in a discussion about the word.

      Do you believe that the Earth and other planets revolve around the sun? If not you’re a crazy person but if you do……then………you accept the heliocentric theory, which says that the Planets in our solar system revolve around a stationary Sun. Yet, it’s only a “theory” yet it’s a FACT. If someone encouraged you to jump off the top of the Sears Tower claiming that Gravity is only a “theory” would you jump? These are both theories but are accepted as facts and that is what scientists think of evolution when they use the word “theory.” Here is what the Field Museum in Chicago has to say about the misconception of the word “theory” when used in evolution.

      “Misconception: Evolution is just a theory, just as intelligent design and creationism are theories.

      Answer: False. Evolution is a scientific theory based on the scientific method, which involves systematic data collection of observable phenomena and scientific experiments that can be accurately replicated. Intelligent design and creationism are faith-based belief systems—not testable scientific theories—that offer non-scientific explanations for life’s origins and the diversity of life forms.”

      http://archive.fieldmuseum.org/evolvingplanet/allabout_7.asp#myth6

      Perhaps you should take a day to visit the museum.)

      Can you prove without a doubt can science prove that there is no GOD,

      (Nope, but you can’t prove that I don’t have an invisible pet unicorn living in my backyard either. You’re making a claim that cannot be proven true or false.)

      I can go to school and acquire degrees up the wazuu and write books, make up some bullshit and make you believe its scienctific.

      (Wrong again! This is where peer review and the scientific method come into play. If a scientist makes a hypothesis there is nothing stopping other scientist from trying to prove him/her wrong.)

      Just like you said the bible is written some bunch of people came up with some stuff to make people believe.

      (true)

      What if science is the same way just to be acknowledge as a smart guy, to get their name out there.

      (It’s not! Science is proven through study, testing, and observation. Then it’s retested and retested. Perhaps you should google “the scientific method” because you know very little about science. It appears that your religious upbringing has blinded you to the truth about science. God isn’t trying to cure cancer scientists are! God isn’t increasing the life span of the average adult, scientists are! God isn’t decreasing infant mortality, scientists are! God didn’t have anything to do with vaccines, organ transplants, automobiles, airplanes, electricity, or heart surgery, science did. When god steps in and does something besides allegedly writing a 2,000 year old book, and steps in to prevent natural disasters or AIDS in Africa then maybe I’ll give him some credit but until he does something to prove that he’s there. I see no need to worship him, read about him, think about him, pray to him or even believe in him.)

      If this what you do is fun, be my guest I enjoy your podcasts they are funny. But the same could probably be said about you guys that the reason you are doing this and talking about JDUBS is to fill your own void.

      (Im happier than I have ever been at any point during my life as a JW. I do this podcast to support the EX-JW cause and to give back. Because if it wasn’t for others I would still be afraid that god was going to destroy me at Armageddon.)

      Happy trails my friends, I think you guys are awesome and hilarious.

      (Thanks for your kind words. I hope I wasn’t too hard on you.)

  • OLDFriend

    Jesse,
    Harsh you werent, I too came from this cult, I dont deny they are a cult I still have family in it that shun me out. But they are old fashioned people, I talk to them about their holes and misinterpetation of the bible. But I do believe there is a GOD, I cant see him but have a feeling he is there, and no its not GAS. Air around you is there you cant see it but you know its there, because science proves it that it is there. But arent we light years behind on science? There is so much to discover, than whats to say that there isnt any scientific proof that there is a GOD, just a hypothesis.

    (Not because their parents make them, not because if they don’t their friends will shun them, not because we convince them that god will smite them. We don’t use fear to manipulate People, and if you like us or hate us that is your choice and I respect your right to make your own choice. Life as a witness isn’t a “choice” it’s either do as we say or lose everyone and everything that you have ever known. So, don’t you dare compare me/us to the Jehovahs witnesses.) Trust me not trying to compare you I came from what you came from. But my comparsion is solely based off the fact that just like people from religions like the JDUBS that try to disprove others from what they believe, I feel that the same is applied to you. Though your way is doing a podcast that people can “VOLUNTARILY” listen to, you are still trying to sway them away. You have a personal thing though, which I respect. Not that I dont care about my family but its like beating a dead horse with mine. To each their own, right? You family might just alittle more opened minded than mine.

    For the word theroy I used the definition word meaning an unproved assumption. So my apologies on the word.
    I have a question what is your opinion on this issue:
    If two scientists often regarded as atheists denied they were atheists, why do atheists use their principles to prove the religion’s point? The two scientists I am referring to are Charles Darwin and Albert Einstein. When asked about his religious beliefs, Darwin replied that he had never been an Atheist in the sense of denying the existence of a God, and that generally “an Agnostic would be the more correct description of my state of mind.” Einstein not only said, “The bigotry of the nonbeliever is for me nearly as funny as the bigotry of the believer,” he also said “what really makes me angry is that they quote me for the support of such views.” It makes absolutely no sense to regard these two scientists’ principles as infallible, and totally disregard their own beliefs about the existence of a God or gods.

    So Charles Darwin avid scientist believed that God was the ultimate lawgiver( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Darwin
    . Quotes from Einstein http://einsteinandreligion.com/atheism.html
    Love to know what you think.
    It is a shame that the JDUBS scare their followers, I believe in science because it as proven so many things but I also believe in GOD. Maybe one day science will prove the fact if he is real or not and end all quarrels between families and friends, but until then you have people who willing to share their beliefs. Take care guys cant wait to hear the next podcast.

  • Jesse

    Oldfriend,

    After speaking with George earlier today, your mysterious identity was revealed. Even though I may not have known you personally I believe that I know you better than you think. I understand how former JWs think and why they do and say the things that they do. While you say you trust science your words scream otherwise. I still bare many of the scars that the JWs carved into my mind. For instance, late at night when I’m lying in bed and I hear a noise my first thought isn’t “oh that’s just the refrigerator” my thought instantly turns to demons. This is because I was trained to think this way. I was trained to let fear manipulate me. I don’t even believe in demons or any type of spirits but for a few seconds at least they come into my mind. I believe that on quite a few occasions we fail to realize the affect that our cultish upbringing had on our lives.

    I wanted to address a couple of the points that you brought up in your rebuttal.

    1. But I do believe there is a GOD, I cant see him but have a feeling he is there

    Your personal feelings prove nothing. If that’s your evidence for believing it’s pretty weak. Why don’t you tell me why you believe in god? Real, tangible evidence only please. What argument convinced you personally, that god is real and that the bible is his inerrant word? Keep in mind though that your feelings and your personal experiences are not evidence for god.

    2. For the word theroy I used the definition word meaning an unproved assumption.

    I’ll forgive you if you promise to never bring up this argument when discussing evolution ever again. Please keep in mind that your definition of the word is irrelevant it is scientist’s definitions that matters.

    3. Maybe one day science will prove the fact if he is real or not and end all quarrels between families and friends.

    Science may not have proven or disproven the existence of god yet, but that doesn’t apply to the bible. Science, anthropology, archaeology and textual criticism can in fact disprove the “inspiration” of the bible. Unfortunately, families and friends still quarrel about its validity. Why? Because they are willing to deny the evidence just like they would if science proved there was no god.

    4. If two scientists often regarded as atheists denied they were atheists, why do atheists use their principles to prove the religion’s point?

    I’m not quite sure what you’re trying to prove with this point. I don’t care what Einstein thought about god and I don’t care what Darwin thought about god. I have never once felt a need to appeal to the authority of Einstein. When I find myself debating a Christian, usually I attack the morality of the bible. Or I comment on the scientific inaccuracies of the flood and the creation of language. However, I don’t appeal to Einstein. Even if Einstein was a believer in god there is no evidence to support that he believed in the Christian god. Appealing to Einstein’s belief in god is another tactic used by Christians, especially the JDUBS. Just so you know Einstein said that he didn’t believe in a personal god.
    Darwin may have been a believer and he may have been an atheist. I don’t know or care. What I do know is that he was one of the first people to purpose the Theory of Evolution. That is what I respect him for, but I don’t think that everything he said was 100% accurate. He was a brilliant man that laid the foundation of evolution, a foundation that many others have built on to make it the fact that it is. He also lived in a time when atheism was an almost foreign concept. If he lived today we can only speculate what he would have believed but that would be pointless. Honestly, I don’t know why you brought these two men up. Your reference to them means nothing. Perhaps you could develop a reasonable argument for the side you’re taking and not create a straw-man argument attempting to disprove points that I never made. I don’t care what arguments other atheists make, except maybe Dillahunty. Here’s an idea! If you call the Atheist Experience and can defeat Matt D in a debate, I will convert to your church! You’re also welcome to call our show and debate with us. Even though you say that you don’t care what people believe you still think you’re right, otherwise you wouldn’t be a Christian. Why not put that confidence to the test?

    Jesse

  • OLDFriend

    Jesse,
    I dont know who George thinks I am, but no worries. You dont need to convert, I am not here to convert you or anyone else. Reason why I brought up the Darwin and Einstein is just to get your opinion. Yet my emails have been throughout very even keel, yet I notice your ongoing feeling I am attacking you. No reason to get offensive, I see you are very passionate for what you have found to be the truth. Science has proven so many great things, you mention something about the different things that science can help people, like the transfusion of blood. Something I will never pass up, hope to live a long life and have a family. Yet if you feel I am attacking you, or making some dumb ass comments without any proof I apologize sincerely. I wish you the best in your endeavors on this and many issues. Please dont feel that I am backing away. But your right I cant prove that there is a GOD or the validity of the BIBLE. I will remain with what I believe in, call whatever you want but I just have a gut feeling. Maybe and just maybe one of us will get proved wrong about the whole matter.I am no one to judge about anyones way of thinking, one thing I can assure you is that the religion I pertain to is nothing like the JDUBS. We dont banish our families. I will still keep listening to you guys, and send maybe other comments. Last question that just came to mind, I see you guys are “Freethinkers” dont you think this should apply to everyone? Even those that dont believe what you believe, lets them think freely of what they want to think. I am no extremist by any means, I just feel we all have free will to do whatever I want to do, even believe in something that might be a hoax.

    • Jesse

      Oldfriend,

      It’s not about you attacking me. Honestly, I don’t feel as if you have been. What bothers me is that you started this entire discussion by spreading miss-information. Then you followed that up by building a straw man argument. This is something that Christians commonly do to promote their belief system. You have to keep in mind that this isn’t first time that I’ve heard the “evolution is only a theory and Einstein believed in god” arguments. They get old and annoying. All I asked was why you are a believer! You can tell me why evolution is wrong and what Einstein said. But you have failed to answer the most important question……….Why are you a believer? It should not be that difficult. Have you ever read the bible cover to cover? What divine insights found in the bible prove to you that it’s the inspired word of god? If you cannot produce any reasons for your belief then I don’t understand why you believe. Sure you say, “it’s a feeling in my gut.” But we both know that our mind can play tricks on us. JWs believe that they are anointed because of a “gut” feeling! All I want to know is why you’re a believer. If I appear a bit upset or irritated by your comments it’s only because you have failed to explain why you believe. If my tone came off a bit harsh I apologize for that. Personally I want to believe as many true things as possible and as few incorrect things.

      Jesse

  • OLDFriend

    I dont believe I am the anointed by any means I just try to live my life as the best person I can be. Granite I dont need to be religious to do that, you yourself could be a really great guy. Live your life morally right, to be the best man in your life. No I have not read the BIBLE cover to cover. Though I should, but is not one verse that jumps out and makes me be a believer. To be a Christian does entail probably to be in the word everyday and I try, I never said I was perfect. But my faith, (and I know you guys hate that word)is what leads me to believe that there is a GOD out there. Who knows I might be out of my mind. What might not be around to ever find out. But if we are, can you imagine what the outcome is of this issue, whatever way it goes? Lets just say for a minute that GOD comes and explains everything, what would you do? I know that if I am proven wrong that GOD does not exist that I will be the first to go on your show and say dang what a waste of my time. But whatever the situation might result, I will live my life my way and you yours. I will still enjoy listening to you guys.

    • Jesse

      Oldfriend,

      The anointed thing was just an illustration that gut instincts can be wrong, showing the importance of basing beliefs on tangible evidence. But I cannot claim to understand those feelings and should leave your personal feelings alone. I applaud you for living by high moral standards it’s far too often that Christians fail to live up to the standards that they are promoting. I also would like to encourage you to read the entire bible. Remember, if it is divinely inspired, god’s biography is the best way to get to know the almighty. And of course, if there is a god according to the bible I’m screwed and you would be saved. I guess, I’m just willing to take that risk and if a god thinks that I deserve death for not believing in him then I don’t really care to serve him.

      I can try to be a good and moral person but according to the bible there is nothing I do can save my soul, unless I’m willing to accept god and the sacrifice of Jesus. This is one reason I’m not a Christian because it feels like a gun has been placed to my head saying, “believe or else.” While you say that you don’t care what people believe please keep in mind that your god does care what people believe.

      Deuteronomy 13:12 – If you hear it said about one of the towns the LORD your God is giving you to live in that wicked men have arisen among you and have led the people of their town astray, saying, “Let us go and worship other gods” (gods you have not known), then you must inquire, probe and investigate it thoroughly. And if it is true and it has been proved that this detestable thing has been done among you, you must certainly put to the sword all who live in that town. Destroy it completely, both its people and its livestock.

      Perhaps I should include this in the “holy shit” segment. According to the bible you should be willing to kill George and I, because that is what god wants.

      I wanted to answer your question.
      What would I do if god came down and explained himself?

      Of course I would acknowledge his existence. How could I not? If I have undeniable evidence that he was real then I would accept that evidence. Now, I don’t know if that would motivate me to worship him. If he was the Christian god, I would ask for an explanation of actions like the one i listed above. I would ask why he allowed hunger, and illnesses to continue on so long. I would ask if he can control the elements and why he allows natural disasters. I would ask what all the animals that he killed in the flood did to deserve such a horrific end to their lives. Animals have emotions my friend, they feel pain and depression just like humans. So, I would ask why he felt the need to slaughter the livestock in Jericho and any other cities the Israelites occupied. I would ask why it’s not ok to boil a calf in it’s mother milk but it’s ok to kill a baby (numbers 31:17,18). That is how I would react if the Christian god made himself known to me.

      Jesse

  • Anonymous

    I’m missing your podcast! I’m sure there is a good reason you haven’t been updating. Will there be one soon?

    • Jesse

      Sorry about the long wait between shows. We just recorded a show tonight and plan to have it up within the next day or two.

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